"Russia will not be able to exist." Interview with the new ombudsman Dmitry Lubinets - about the tribunal, the terrorist attack in Olenivka and the work of Denisova
In an interview with Radio NV, Lubinets told the state in which he received the case from his predecessor - Lyudmila Denisova, who left the post not without conflict; whether to hope for the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) after a terrorist attack in Olenivka, where Ukrainian prisoners of war, including Azov, were killed; And also about how to make an international criminal tribunal that will judge the Russians effective.
- President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky said in his address that the death of prisoners of war in Olenivka is a "conscious Russian military crime, a conscious murder of prisoners of war. When the Azovstal defenders left the factory, the UN and the ICCH were guaranteed the life and health of our soldiers. Now the guarantors have to respond.
" Do we know what guarantees gave the UN and ICCH? -As far as I know, they guaranteed, first, that they will be saved life and provided the necessary medical care. Second, they will be kept in decent conditions, they will be treated according to the internationally recognized provisions, which are fixed in the Geneva Conventions, that is, they are legally prisoners of war.
Third: they were guaranteed (as far as I know, at that time I was not in office) that they would do everything and participate in the process of exchange of prisoners of war for prisoners of war of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. And so there was a guarantee that they would all return to our country, to their families. - You are in office from July 1. Did they receive any updates in what state they keep prisoners of war or UN? - So.
In the first week, I initiated and met with the head of the ICCH office in Kiev - Pascal Hundt. We had a public and not a public part [conversation], but we didn't even publish information. So is public [part]: he showed and directly stated that Ukraine's attitude towards prisoners of war - no questions, is a model of implementation of the Geneva Conventions. And at any time, ICCH representatives have access to the premises where they hold, the conditions, that is, all Ukraine fulfills.
Instead, we demanded mirror to be as for prisoners of war, which are kept in the Russian Federation and in temporarily occupied territories. And here the ICCH reported that often the Russian side does not give the opportunity to visit our heroes. Such cases occur. They stressed that such cases are not a system, sometimes they are allowed. In what condition they are, I asked the question. They said that the conditions differ for the worse than Ukraine does.
But for the specific names of our Armed Forces servicemen, they cannot provide us with such information. They give it exclusively to relatives. - In the ICRC, they claim that they were in a concentration camp in Olenivka and that prisoners of war are kept in satisfactory conditions. There was a police officer from Mariupol, who got to Olenivka. He argued that he was kept in a chamber where there were about 50 people, and the Azov was kept in a chamber where 70 people were not given water.
I see no reason not to believe the person who was there. Can we trust what they say in the ICCH? - We can trust what they say. They do not make secrets from the fact that the Russian Federation does not always allow them. And, again, they in public, at a meeting with me, stated that the conditions of detention of our prisoners of war are much worse than Ukraine does.
When I ask a question on specific names, the only thing they tell me whether information is confirmed to hold a particular prisoner of war in the Russian Federation is the so -called verification procedure. Regarding the specific medical condition, in which conditions there is a particular serviceman, they can only be reported to relatives.
- Why did the ICCH not make its statement more louder, given the guarantees that he provided during the release of the Azovstal defenders from the plant? I mean that they are not allowed. - This is probably a question to them. We see how the ICCH is trying to stay, so to speak, a mediator who could play the role of a communication channel between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
In my opinion, they should go directly and say if one of the parties does not fulfill any arrangements, violates international obligations. As for the Russian Federation, ready to agree, they simply record the fact that they were not allowed once again, but they do not draw conclusions. The efforts [get to the places of detention], at least at this time, we do not see. As soon as the information appeared on Olenovka, I immediately wrote a letter to Mr. Pascal. I know he is in Geneva.
They tried to contact him personally. It didn't work out. Contacted his personal assistant. And in the morning [July 30] we have already started receiving official information from them. They sent a letter to the Russian side to give them permission to visit Olenivka, it is a place where a terrible tragedy, a military crime took place. We have every reason to claim that the Russian army servicemen did.
- Is it possible to influence the ICCC to make them more persistent? - From a legal point of view, we do everything we can do. - You say that there should be an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council. Urgent is when? UN representatives claim that they are "shocked by explosions in a correctional facility in an occupied Olenivka".
As for the video on which the Ukrainian prisoners of war is tortured, the monitoring mission stated that "stunned and urged all parties to avoid torture and killings of prisoners of war. " What can we expect from the UN, except that they are "shocked" and "stunned"? Is there any responsibility: they gave guarantees, but the military killed? - Legal liability, as we see and expect, no particular. I will not make the sensation. On political responsibility. The UN is lost all over the world.
And we lead to the fact that it is likely that the UN will finally come to the fact that we need to change the behavior of the aggressor country, which is in the UN Security Council, which actually blocks any legal reaction to such actions by its monopoly right to such actions. The state authorities of Ukraine and the President do everything that the international community not only receive official letters from us. We demand from them so that there is a reaction.
If everyone recognizes that the Russian Federation does not adhere to any internationally recognized rules of war, violates the Geneva Conventions, then our requirement to recognize such a state-terrorist state looks quite logical. It is only terrorists not obeyed by any international law. This is already followed by a legal reaction and automatically economic consequences. - On July 1, you took cases from the previous Ombudsman - Lyudmila Denisova.
How can you describe the state of affairs? - Frankly, in a fairly unsystematic form, if you can say so. I would not like to give an assessment of Ludmila Leontievna. First, there was a break. For the first time in history, the Ombudsman was released and a lot of time has passed before the appointment of a new one - almost a month. In fact, according to the Law on Human Rights, the functioning of [institution] without the Ombudsman is legally impossible.
Legally, all appeals are personally considered by the Ombudsman. 30 days people probably came to work (may not have come), did something, but legally it had nothing to do with work. Therefore, what I saw… law enforcement agencies will be given. There are so many big questions from us. The Accounting Chamber has ended, we received a report. And I send this report to the NAPC, to law enforcement. There are many questions about managerial solutions, let's call it so.
- Could you specify what are you talking about? - One of the tools for disseminating information about the activity of the Ombudsman is an official site. I saw that the site is semi -working. And when I gave the task of the information department to fix it, I heard with surprise that they could not do so. The site has been developed recently, for this, public funds were paid, with their size - a little less than 3. 5 million UAH.
If our employees try to correct something on our own, then we will disappear the legal basis for sending claims to the computer firm that developed this site. - One of the reasons why Denisov could be released was that some of her statements were difficult to confirm. Did you face that? - And we also encountered this too.
In my opinion, if the Ombudsman's office makes statements about crimes, first of all, their number [should be] recorded by law enforcement agencies, opened on each fact of criminal proceedings, their previous information, and after that, if necessary, this information is published.
It seems to me that we should be much more effective when we are professionally fixing this evidence and making no criminal in the future - a representative or serviceman of the Russian Federation - has not avoided punishment. This is much better to do than you have just received the information, immediately go into the public space. [Otherwise] we give a signal, and with all the evidence, witnesses work, which makes it impossible or complicates the collection of evidence.
And this is the most important in criminal proceedings. We want to legally, competently prepare the future international criminal tribunal, which should condemn both the higher management of the aggressor country and every military personnel of the Russian army who committed such crimes. - Do you really believe that you can do it? The Russians are kicked on the Geneva Conventions and they are sure that everything will cost. - It is not in the conventions, but in a separate tribunal.
I do not just believe, but I know: if the Ukrainian authorities, together with international criminalists, lawyers, make their work qualitatively and professionally, then in the future no one will have a choice, except to create a similar tribunal, which will end with the sentences of specific persons who will not simply make it impossible Communication, and in general will break the entire economic component of the Russian Federation.